the medical system
#1
so in my short time being in this unit I've come to realize that the medical system is way to easy to the point where it can eliminate the purpose of the combat medic because a singular rifleman can get somebody back up with the limited supplies that that are equipped with and in my eyes there is no risk to a move because 1-3 bandages will completely fix me up and i'll be fine. i believe that if we increase the difficulty of our medical system it can combat these issues making SL, FTL and members in the operations think about their moves before rushing in. it also adds a sense of realism to wounds and how they're treated. for example in my last unit they had it set so certain bandages would help patch up different injury's to a different degree and the medical system was tough to a degree but fair.

Another addition id personally like to have in the unit is KAT medical these on top of ace would make the realism so much more. KAT medical is a mod which adds airways systems to the game which means that medics will have to also treat their airways at the same time which'll make the role more enjoyable in my eyes as they'll have a harder job where wounds wont just be magically healed you want your reopening wounds sorted get stitched

I'd be more than happy to help implement this in anyway e.g making docs for the new medical system because with these additions i feel like I've said it'll take the unit to a whole other level because its what draws people in people that I feel would have the right temperament for the group. I have extensive knowledge on how to use both kat medical and ace medical to a harder degree and i want to help improve it so that medics are more valuable than what they seem like to me atm a carrier of more medical gear.
#2
Although I think this would be pretty fun to implement I have to say it's not something that will ever happen. As we play in a limited time, 4 hours only, we have to maximize everyone's playtime. Having to wait for 30 minutes to patch up 1 person adds so much downtime it would stop being fun. Other thing we need to consider is that what may be fun for one role may not be fun for other roles, in this the only beneficial role would be a medic. For example if I'm an AR and I got shot, I could go watch a episode of Southpark while I'm in the blackscreen. And don't worry medics would stay the same anyway, only thing that would make them different is that they would carry some additional equipment.

As of SLs, FLTs in both cases there is no reason not to think moves out before rushing in. Nothing would change to them.

I personally would like to add more realism into medical system but I'm not the one getting shot :p and I have sympathy for the ground guys Big Grin
[Image: gIdYLO.png]
#3
no what im saying is make the stats harder than what they im not saying to the point where it takes 20 minutes to get someone up but even 5 minutes adds to the experience and helps improve the member
#4
I completely agree with Richard. It would be more realistic, more immersive, but it's not that big of a difference in immersion from our current medical procedures. It would only take up large chunks of our time just to treat one soldier. Imagine taking 30 minutes to patch one up and then a second one goes down. You have a quarter of the official group time gone... I think this is just not gonna happen with our time limitations right now.
[Image: GIuM4x.png]
#5
(09-05-2020, 01:56 PM)Stanley.K Wrote: no what im saying is make the stats harder than what they im not saying to the point where it takes 20 minutes to get someone up but even 5 minutes adds to the experience and helps improve the member
Setting have already been changed many times to fit this kind of playstyle. Other thing I want to add is that although non-medics are able to treat themselves even if they're out of combat they're tasking is mostly going to be to provide security while medics are doing all the work or treating you. As a non-medic your responsibility is to stop your bleeding if the situation allows it and let the medic do all the work afterwards. All they have to do is strap a tourniquet or if not possible bandage to stop bleeding and then continue fighting.
[Image: gIdYLO.png]
#6
Stanley, I love the enthusiasm with engaging with this aspect of gaming. I completely understand where you are coming from with regards to the limited difficulty with engaging with medical treatment. However, I have two primary concerns with the changes to the game that you are proposing which I have outlined below:

Firstly, stopping an operation to conduct life-saving medical intervention is a development out of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, where preservation of life was considered to be paramount to operational success. The doctrine that we are operating under is incompatible with such an approach, and if we were to stay true to our doctrine in operations, the best you could hope for would be to self-help any wounds, and either be dumped or move yourself onto the axis of advance. You could then expect to be evacuated on exfil from the operational area and play no further part in the mission.

Secondly, the number of casualties that we sustained on Op GRAIL is a game-ism, something to make the game more challenging and enjoyable. The most comparable historic action from which our doctrine is derived is Operation GOTHIC SERPENT (so called "Black Hawk Down" incident in Somalia). Despite being involved in a prolonged engagement (18 hours) between US forces and Somali guerrillas. Of the 160 that initially conducted the raid and 3,000 relief troops, 19 died and 73 were wounded (most from the initial 160). As a direct result of the lessons learned from conducting raids like this, TTPs were adapted so that by the time you get to Operation NEPTUNE SPEAR (Bin-Laden raid) there were no allied casualties (1 helicopter was denied after the tail rotor hit a wall). Therefore, it would be unrealistic to expect a significant number of casualties, which, I believe, would detract from the enjoyment of the game.

Overall, I think you're in a catch 22 situation, if we make it more realistic, not only have you got to dumb-down the AI to reduce the number of casualties, but you've also got to change the entire doctrine back towards an Iraq/Afghanistan mindset. The only two potential resolutions that I can think of is if you can increase the complexity of the medical system, but still deal with casualties quickly enough so that enjoyment is not impacted on, or you drastically change the way the group runs its ops by using more invasive suppression mods. To my mind, dumbing down the AI and reducing casualties would likely detract from the enjoyment of the game and not be worth the trade off for a slight increase in enjoyment for the combat medic. Moreover, I love the doctrine, pace, and milsim balance of the game and think that the changes necessary to make your ideas work would effectively kill it in its current format.
#7
Thanks for telling us what you have in mind. Having played medic for a while in the group and having the chance to get with Themelis to make the CMT course, I've got to go in details about the settings we have.

What we try to have, is a system that doesn't put a stop or a block to the fun. We have limited time to our meeting, only once a week, and we want everyone to enjoy it. So we try to keep things involved enough to where it's not just press H to heal. But simple enough so that you can get an idea of what's going on even if you know only the basics. So we haven't implemented wounds reopening, stitching, advanced drugs or any medivac procedures.

We also have to keep in mind that the Combat Medic or Combat Life Saver is first a Rifleman, second a Medic. So we want to keep things easy to grasp and figure out a way to deal with things. It's a role that has some depth to it, but things are still simple enough where you don't have to focus on it 100% of the time.

It's also that, by how we do things, manpower is limited for medic, you only have one assigned (maybe two if you count TL) in the role is some Squads. So they need to be able to get the Squad back up and ready to fight on their own on certain occasion (I hope you won't have to witness those situations *cries in Vietnam flashback*).

All in all, it's a balancing act of, having a role people can enjoy, having challenging missions but also making sure everyone else get's to enjoy their time. We try to make things light on the medical system so that it doesn't dictate what you will do in the next hour, but still has impact on what you will do in the next 10 minutes.

For now, I don't think we will change the settings, but I believe we can bring this back up once we have Charlie Squad Up and Running and will have more possibility, and having medical halt movement for more than 10 minutes won't compromise the entire mission.
If you want, we can get together with other members and try to figure out settings for Ace Medical and present it to EC once we're happy with it.
[Image: 1FJcz1b.png]
#8
(09-05-2020, 02:20 PM)Tom.H Wrote: Thanks for telling us what you have in mind. Having played medic for a while in the group and having the chance to get with Themelis to make the CMT course, I've got to go in details about the settings we have.

What we try to have, is a system that doesn't put a stop or a block to the fun. We have limited time to our meeting, only once a week, and we want everyone to enjoy it. So we try to keep things involved enough to where it's not just press H to heal. But simple enough so that you can get an idea of what's going on even if you know only the basics. So we haven't implemented wounds reopening, stitching, advanced drugs or any medivac procedures.

We also have to keep in mind that the Combat Medic or Combat Life Saver is first a Rifleman, second a Medic. So we want to keep things easy to grasp and figure out a way to deal with things. It's a role that has some depth to it, but things are still simple enough where you don't have to focus on it 100% of the time.

It's also that, by how we do things, manpower is limited for medic, you only have one assigned (maybe two if you count TL) in the role is some Squads. So they need to be able to get the Squad back up and ready to fight on their own on certain occasion (I hope you won't have to witness those situations *cries in Vietnam flashback*).

All in all, it's a balancing act of, having a role people can enjoy, having challenging missions but also making sure everyone else get's to enjoy their time. We try to make things light on the medical system so that it doesn't dictate what you will do in the next hour, but still has impact on what you will do in the next 10 minutes.

For now, I don't think we will change the settings, but I believe we can bring this back up once we have Charlie Squad Up and Running and will have more possibility, and having medical halt movement for more than 10 minutes won't compromise the entire mission.
If you want, we can get together with other members and try to figure out settings for Ace Medical and present it to EC once we're happy with it.
Very well said Tom. We definitely appreciate any and all feedback.  I would maybe give it a few more missions and get a feel for the groups play style and then if you think there's some specific setting modifications you feel would still fit, I'd reach out to Themelis and Tom to discuss those. They have really spear headed and managed the medic program.
[Image: U0sNDm.png]
#9
Tons of feedback, ideas, different experiences and gameplay preferences in this thread, personally I love seeing all the information from everybody I think it only stands to make the group even better when we have so much open discussion.
 
We used to have the medical system tweaked to be more realistic, wounds would reopen, stitching was required, and you really had to stay on top of your guys and keep them in good health. While this was certainly a fun element to gameplay it really does slow things down quite a bit, halts were more frequent cause a wound would need stitching, casualties would hold everybody in one spot for upwards of 30 or 40 mins just waiting for an unconscious man to get back up, things like that.
 
EC and the medics have worked closely together to fine-tune a medical system we think works best for 1AA, a balance between fun and realism. It is our intention to have the extra element of combat medical but also maintain the balance of the pace of the mission so we can still get the job done and maximize the groups fun in the time frame that we have. We are lucky to have so many members but there is a trade off with that: finding time for a mission that suits everybody’s schedule is challenging. I think our system works in that we still have our medical fun while not putting too much of an impact on everyone’s time – seeing that it’s only once a week we get together.
 
Like you said – a rifleman could easily patch himself up and might not ever need a medic. The way I look at this is simple: roles. 1AA utilizes roles in the squad and fireteam dynamic so that we have specializations in certain areas in order to maintain our focus and operational readiness while in a mission. I could easily open up the map and plot a nice route to our objective for my team leader, but we like to have the Scout focus on this task as part of his role. I could easily get on my radio and ask Zulu to come help me blow up some targets, but we limit this to command level elements as part of their role. I could suppress bad guys trying to assault our position, but the AR gunner is better suited to this and his role is better equipped for this task. What am I getting at? The Medic, like these other roles, is a rifleman first but he is tasked with maintaining the team’s health in a fight. That is his focus, he has the extra equipment to accomplish the job that his role demands so that other members in other roles can focus on what their job is and their primary task.
 
I’m all for more challenges and new tasks to go after, but this is my thinking when it comes to this topic. I am in NO WAY discouraging anybody from suggesting changes or wanting to try new things, I enjoy the discussion and feedback this is only my 2 cents. (As usual Tom made some really great points, sorry I repeated a couple of them)
 
P.S. -- Feel free to go over the medical information we have put in the QRG section of the forum or check out the medical manual and let us know what changes you would like to see or what features you think would fit best with our current setup. Both of these can be found in the Training Library section. Thank you everyone for the feedback and ideas.
[Image: PXUvFX.png]
#10
sorry its taken me a while to reply i was asleep and what I'm trying to say is have it so that its not stupidly long to get someone up i think that changing the pace during a mission would be nice and some do find the slower paced areas fun during operations. also with the whole halting with the wounds reopening i do understand how that can be annoying. im still a supporter for making them a little harder because it can be fun.
  


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)